tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post4239005911481303963..comments2023-05-16T02:53:34.878-07:00Comments on The Catholic Working Mother: Hateful, bigoted, and vitrolic - huh?JoAnna Wahlundhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09942928659520676271noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-71400791949817869322011-07-08T13:23:26.504-07:002011-07-08T13:23:26.504-07:00Maya, thank you for your respectful and courteous ...Maya, thank you for your respectful and courteous response. (Some of your comments went to the spam folder -- I released them and deleted any duplicates.)<br /><br />I will probably respond to you in a new post due to the length issue, and it will probably take me a day or two to write out my response, so please bear with me.JoAnna Wahlundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09942928659520676271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-72353013307426025272011-07-08T12:59:03.699-07:002011-07-08T12:59:03.699-07:00And part three, since apparently I really have a l...And part three, since apparently I really have a lot to say. <br /><br />You also assert in your previous post that you do not need to be married to someone to, for instance, be able to will your property to them upon your death. No, you do not, this is true. However, in the event you do not take extra legal steps to specify that you wish this to happen, the state will automatically assume that your property will go to your husband. If something were to happen to you, nobody would challenge the notion that your husband was legally the next responsible person for raising your children, he would automatically be granted those rights. Gay couples suffer through countless little slights each day that to me, are unnecessary. Why should they have to fight legally and jump through hoops (or sometimes even be denied the ability to jump through hoops) to obtain the same privileges conferred automatically upon heterosexual couples? <br /><br />To use a real example, in the thread, Jemma mentioned just one way in which the exclusion of considering homosexual couples to be legally wed in Pennsylvania has affected her family. Her wife works at the university her daughter attended, but "My daughter attended that university and, for her first three years, she had to pay tuition, whereas the step-children of straight couples do not. That little example cost my family about $20,000. By her final year, my wife's union had won same-sex benefits. That's just one small example." <br /><br />To me, this is wrong. If we as a society hold that the ideal relationship legally is two people, bound to each other by law to the exclusion of all others, then the benefits of that legal relationship should extend to any in a similar situation, regardless of the genders involved. <br /><br />I've also never been able to understand, nor received, a satisfactory answer as to what changes when one partner in a homosexual relationship undergoes a sex change, transforming the couple into a heterosexual one. Suddenly, they are allowed to marry, yet they are not able to naturally procreate, so would they also be denied the ability to marry in your worldview? I'm genuinely curious. <br /><br />I will return to read your reply, but I don't know that I'll feel compelled to comment again. However, just this once, I decided to give it my best shot at explaining why I feel the way I do, and attempting to get you to see why your remarks would provoke such anger and hostility on the board. <br /><br />- MayaMayanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-15355967438166343352011-07-08T12:38:51.735-07:002011-07-08T12:38:51.735-07:00(part two, since the first comment got cut off for...(part two, since the first comment got cut off for length)<br /><br /><br />And a note about the "secular" article you posted from the Harvard Review - if you had returned to the thread, you would have seen that Halfwright challenged the assumption that the article is wholly secular: "The second author has written several books on how government should enforce morality (his morality, of course). The first author has written (religiously-based) letters to the editor about abortion and wrote his senior thesis on the (moral) dangers of premarital sex. At least two of them are very devout Catholics -- the first page of google turned that up easily -- and write frequently about the issue from a faith-based approach. Religion absolutely informs their views. Though they might not reference religion specifically (and they even try their hardest to stay away from it), I'd argue that religion is front and center in that piece." The vehicle might be secular, but to claim that they are approaching the issue from a wholly secular standpoint seems disingenuous, at best, to me. <br /><br />In response to your quote above that "I never said that gays can't procreate, so they don't need marriage" - if that wasn't your intent with this quote "As homosexual couples are, by nature and design, unable to naturally procreate, the privileges are unnecessary" - then what was? I take privilege to mean the privilege of marriage, unless I'm misreading the sentence? <br /><br />Lastly, at the very least, two consenting homosexuals in a long-term relationship should not have to jump through endless legal hoops to obtain the same benefits extended to heterosexual couples. You do not have to be married to someone in order to will your house to them upon your death, but failing your explicit directions otherwise, the state will automatically assume that your husband is the inheritor. Gay couples do not have that right. If you'd continued to read the thread, you would have read how Jemma's family was denied tuition benefits because her wife is not legally considered to be married to her, and thus Jemma's daughter was not able to avail of faculty tuition benefits the way she would have had her stepmother been a stepfather instead. There are countless little slights affected against gay couples every day because the state does not recognize or makes very difficult their ability to obtain the same benefits that are automatically conferred upon heterosexual couples. To me, that is wrong. If two people have committed themselves to each other, then they should get the same rights as any other two people in a similar situation, regardless of the genders involved. <br /><br />I'll stop here since this comment is reaching epic proportions, and I don't know that I'll feel compelled to comment again, but I thought this once, I would give it my best shot. <br /><br />- MayaMayanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-80089047303130743942011-07-08T12:38:25.060-07:002011-07-08T12:38:25.060-07:00JoAnna,
I'm going to do my level best to exp...JoAnna, <br /><br />I'm going to do my level best to explain where I am coming from, though I recognize we are never going to see eye to eye on this issue. <br /><br />The reason your words provoked outrage is precisely because, to many people, myself included, the term "objectively disordered" is offensive in the extreme. It suggests something is fundamentally wrong with a person, and is often used to describe conditions of great deviancy, such as pedophilia. Surely you can appreciate how, no matter the distinction between sin and sinner, why that phrase in particular would be cause for a great deal of anger and outrage? If you're not calling homosexuals objectively disordered, why use a quote that describes the condition of homosexuality as such? <br /><br />Furthermore, if you believe that homosexuality is not a choice, then yes, it does become rather more complicated to separate out "hating the sin but loving the sinner" as the two become inextricably linked. Obviously we are never going to agree on the point of whether or not homosexuality is a biological orientation or a choice, but at least try to understand where people's anger and outrage is coming from instead of feigning surprise at their reactions. <br /><br />As to your arguments about incest and pedophilia. Incest doesn't technically harm anyone if the two adults involved are consenting, but there's issues of whether or not that consent can be genuine, for a start. I have my doubts whether it ever can be truly consensual, but aside from issues of consent, there's the fact that closely related biological individuals procreating vastly increases the risk of serious genetic conditions. <br /><br />As for pedophilia, really? Pedophiles might be "born that way," but their victims are unable to consent. Neither of these conditions holds true in a consensual, adult, homosexual relationship. It's also deeply offensive to me to relate homosexuality to incest and pedophilia, even for the purposes of making an analogy (however poor I think it may be), and many others feel the same.Mayanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-13250790426037522352011-07-08T07:59:01.351-07:002011-07-08T07:59:01.351-07:00Hannah, I'd like evidence of your accusation. ...Hannah, I'd like evidence of your accusation. I've never called anyone objectively disordered. <br /><br />As for pedophelia/incest, please explain how they are not at least similar. Many pedophiles claim they are "born that way," just like homosexuals. Many incestuous couples are consenting adults who aren't hurting anyone. The <i>parallels</i> are there even if the details are different.<br /><br />I never said that "gays can't procreate so they don't need marriage." If you're going to respond to specific points of mine, please use direct quotes. It appears you're either misinterpreting my words or taking them out of context, and I can't respond to either. Infertile and post-menopausal couples still have the potential for childbearing if not the ability, even if the probability is low. Homosexual couples cannot procreate naturally, period. <br /><br />I'm not trying to "play the victim." I gave my reasons for not sticking around the thread, and I offered to continue the discussion (or any discussion) one-on-one with anyone who cares to do so. I've a full-time job, I'm pregnant, and I have three kids to take care of; I simply don't have the time to engage in a lengthy debate with 42 different questions flying at me every five minutes.<br /><br />Also, as it says above the comment box, please be respectful and courteous when commenting.JoAnna Wahlundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09942928659520676271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-28287059395428043512011-07-08T03:31:07.391-07:002011-07-08T03:31:07.391-07:00How the bloody hell is calling someone "objec...How the bloody hell is calling someone "objectively disordered" and comparing them to pedophilia/incest not deliberately inflammatory? I am engaged to a man. How does this affect you in any way? How, then, would it affect you if I had a wife instead?<br /><br />As you said in your recent entry, gays can't procreate so they don't need marriage. It's a good thing we don't let the infertile or post-menopausal marry!<br /><br /><br />You cut and run. You do it all the damn time, so don't even TRY to play the victim here.Hannahnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-80009330123280664262011-07-07T19:55:45.442-07:002011-07-07T19:55:45.442-07:00Understanding the official Catholic position on ho...Understanding the official Catholic position on homosexuality requires more than one-step thinking, and this is not our culture's strong suit. Sound-bytes, slogans, and appeals to emotion: this is all our culture understands. We cannot fit into a pithy headline the Church's logical philosophy about the inherent sinfulness of homosexual acts and the inherent dignity of homosexual persons, so it's easier for the media and colluding politicians to label the Catholic Church (and all who agree with her) as bigoted and hateful. It's lazy stereotyping at its worst, but this is what our culture is best at doing because it's all most people understand (as evidenced from the responses you've garnered).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-23392366204425373522011-07-06T17:27:19.524-07:002011-07-06T17:27:19.524-07:00gwen,
At the bubble, I've seen you mostly swin...gwen,<br />At the bubble, I've seen you mostly swing in to denounce the rest of us as having no sense or an education that's not up to snuff, and then you want your subsequent point taken seriously. One attracts more flies with honey than with vinegar, as granny would say.<br /><br />And to JoAnna's point, she separates sin from sinner.Nubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15972118374098863290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-71141617629915266672011-07-06T17:12:03.501-07:002011-07-06T17:12:03.501-07:00Just now found your blog. Love your fighting spir...Just now found your blog. Love your fighting spirit. You are solid.<br /><br />Small world - hello, gwen.<br />Hi, Leila!Nubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15972118374098863290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-39942509554476600962011-07-05T08:36:47.568-07:002011-07-05T08:36:47.568-07:00Well, gwen, I've never once seen anyone at the...Well, gwen, I've never once seen anyone at the Bubble call you names or repeatedly insult you. So if you could please point out where that happened, I'd love to see the evidence.<br /><br />However, this HAS happened to me (and others) at the board I'm a member of - it's not heavily moderating when it comes to debate - so I knew that any participation on my part in that thread would just be more of the same.<br /><br />However, I'm more than happy to correspond one-on-one via e-mail or PM with anyone who wishes to continue the debate. (In fact, I am continuing the debate on FB messaging.) I don't think I've seen you extend a similar offer, gwen.JoAnna Wahlundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09942928659520676271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-42047523547630605342011-07-05T07:59:44.037-07:002011-07-05T07:59:44.037-07:00No-I didn't post the anonymous comments above....No-I didn't post the anonymous comments above. I just wanted to say I am a little amused that you are being called out for the same "transgressions" I have been accused of over at the Bubble, namely "bolting from the debate."<br /><br />Maybe now you'll understand that I too have left conversations because "I have neither the time nor the patience for a debate in which it'd be 42 against 1 and I'd no doubt be called names and repeatedly insulted."<br /><br />Funny how things come full circle.<br /><br />-gwenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-77159644125522155212011-07-04T09:46:41.563-07:002011-07-04T09:46:41.563-07:00Interesting that both Anonymous posters have been ...Interesting that both Anonymous posters have been unable to quote any specific words of mine that they consider "hateful", nor have any others chimed in... <br /><br />I'm still trying to figure out how my sources are "deliberately inflammatory as well." I mean, gee, the Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy is such a controversial source. ???JoAnna Wahlundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09942928659520676271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-53118232338773468762011-07-03T22:46:28.473-07:002011-07-03T22:46:28.473-07:00Thank you for your courage, JoAnna. It is so refre...Thank you for your courage, JoAnna. It is so refreshing. And you are not inflammatory in the least. You are kind and patient. Thank you, thank you.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-59362604216686736482011-07-02T15:55:24.912-07:002011-07-02T15:55:24.912-07:00Anonymous 2 - if marriage is a right, why can'...Anonymous 2 - if marriage is a right, why can't pedophiles and their victims marry? Why can't <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7334649.stm" rel="nofollow">a father and daughter marry</a>?JoAnna Wahlundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09942928659520676271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-8119698643885960672011-07-02T15:53:49.434-07:002011-07-02T15:53:49.434-07:00Anonymous, I didn't cut and run. I stated my r...Anonymous, I didn't cut and run. I stated my reasons above: "I didn't stick around to see the responses to this post, as I have neither the time nor the patience for a debate in which it'd be 42 against 1 and I'd no doubt be called names and repeatedly insulted."<br /><br />People are free to PM me on the board or e-mail me if they have questions they want addressed. I'm happy to continue the discussion if it's one-on-one.<br /><br />As for my sources, I used the Vatican, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy, and the personal blog of a Catholic gay man. Can you clarify how these these sources are "deliberately inflammatory"?JoAnna Wahlundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09942928659520676271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-86831591976924434462011-07-02T14:51:19.445-07:002011-07-02T14:51:19.445-07:00JoAnna, I fully support your position and you. As ...JoAnna, I fully support your position and you. As always, you are doing an excellent job of explaining your views (which are those of the Church) in a kind yet plain way that leaves no error for misunderstanding. Keep doing what you are doing.Elizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00800835059535419787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-13595203813374760732011-07-02T13:37:52.384-07:002011-07-02T13:37:52.384-07:00I find it amusing that "anonymous" is di...I find it amusing that "anonymous" is discussing courage on here.<br /><br />I guarantee you one thing knowing her all these years, JoAnna is not afraid of debate. She may be afraid of wasting her valuable time on people who instinctively call her a hate monger for having a differing opinion.Jarnor23https://www.blogger.com/profile/10717606434925224532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-70834253962990348932011-07-02T12:20:23.914-07:002011-07-02T12:20:23.914-07:00I don't agree. Marriage IS a right. Choosing...I don't agree. Marriage IS a right. Choosing when to have children IS a right. Anyone should be allowed to exercise those rights. Anyone.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-41646557034619938482011-07-02T11:27:45.948-07:002011-07-02T11:27:45.948-07:00JoAnna, maybe if you would stick around and actual...JoAnna, maybe if you would stick around and actually defend your position instead of doing a post and run maybe people at BNaBBT would be willing to treat you with more respect. I find it ironic that you want to be treated with respect and courtesy, yet you use sources that are deliberately inflammatory. Then you bolt faster than the Roadrunner. What are you so afraid of?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com